Post by f on Aug 31, 2010 23:42:31 GMT -5
This comes from a response to a question posted to a discussion group. This was the story:
And this was an answer.
D and I found this FASCINATING and had quite a conversation about it. Please contribute. I would love some thoughts.
D: Dude, these women are driving me crazy. THis isn't just, "I caught him with one file," these are stories about YEARS of evidence. And THEIR OWN CHILDREN. RUN, LADIES, RUN.
f: That is one thing I cannot forgive and look beyond. That is harm to children there. There is no excuse. There is no looking beyond that. People like that deserve to be socially shunned.
D: I think it's creepy for MUCH older men to see MUCH younger women. I think that, in very rare instances, it's not so bad. Once upon a time teenagers got married and had babies as a matter of course, but that's not to say they were happy with it. I do think that people get very hyped up these days over a silly distinction. 18 is not the best dividing line. After 15, teens have some sense of what their doing and should be held partially responsible for whatever goes on. A 17yo is not a CHILD, but people carry on like they're infants.
I'm less concerned with biological age, more with maturity and the inherent power dynamic
f: I think as far as arbitrary ages go, 18 is great. I guess this is where my conservatism kicks in, but I do remember being fifteen and I do remember thinking about these things. We like to look fondly back at ourselves and assign a greater awareness to our past selves than we actually had. I think it's got to do with experience, and since maturity is directly correlated with experience, the vast majority of western seventeen year olds don't have the requisite experience to deal with the sexual and emotional needs of someone much older than they.
I think that they just had it wrong historically. People did live shorter lives, etc
But I think they brought that upon themselves in childbirth -- so many girls who were not able to give birth properly were forced to against their biological readiness.
Even physically, it is not an ideal age.
D: Well, think about it. If you want to keep women subjugated, what better way than to marry them off before they get a chance to be independent and confident? Take full advantage of her naivete and subceptibility to power!
I think it's a bad idea for teens and much older people to date, it's VERY rare for it not to be damaging in some way. But I think we need to treat teens as TEENS, not as kids or as adults.
F: And as teens they are just not capable of the emotional connection required to emote with an adult. I might even understand (well, to a large extent) teenagers having sex with other teenagers.
D: I think five years is the absolute max age difference for that age group. Everything changes from year to year, they want very different things. It's not such a big deal later on, but when you're young, age matters a LOT.
f: Five years was what I had with W and that was crazy. Caused a lot of emotional problems for me in the beginning. (I was eighteen, remember.)
D: right… and in VERY different places, emotionally
F: Things have evened out a lot now, I think. But yeah, I'm not for the whole rationalizing attraction to teenagers thing. 18/19 years of age I guess you can convince me of, but I think the age limit is a self-defeating prophecy.
The seventeen year old really does have a complete absence of responsibility.
Because we don't give it to her.
D: That's what all this is--rationalizing
"Hi, I kinda have a lot to type so please bare with me. I have been with my boyfriend since I was 17 (he was 20 when we met). I am now 25 and he is 28.. over the years of us being together I knew he had an attraction to younger females.. ages 12-16.. I never thought it was right and had deep seeded feelings about it but I let my love for him blind me. When I was about 18 I discovered child pornography on his computer, looked to be 12 yr old girls having supposed consensual sex with older men - at least that is how he justified it when questioned.. 'it was consensual'.. after me expressing my concern in a violent manner that involves a domestic violence arrest he agreed to never do it again and I went back with him.
At 21 I gave birth to our daughter. he would say comments like 'I cant wait til she is in high school so I can check out all her hot high school friends' (as a joke but still disturbing to me). When I was 24 he moved across the country to find work to help support me and our daughter.. when he came back I was suspicious of what he did there and spied on his email/myspace.. what I found was shocking. he had a 15 yr old friend on his myspace that he was having sexual conversations with..'what would you do to me if you were locked in a bedroom with me for 24 hours' type stuff.. their conversations led to phone calls but the msgs made it seem that when she wanted to meet (she lived near him) he backed down and stopped talking to her.. when I confronted him on this he told me the same story so I believed it.
Now that he is back with me and our daughter we have been happy, until I discovered text msgs he was receiving from our friends daughter who is 15 yrs old.. he told me after visiting her and her mother.. that she had developed an infatuation with him and he told her she cant text anymore because his girlfriend has a problem with her age.. he then tells me about our other friend who is 30 who stayed in the same 15 yr olds home for 2 weeks and 'fooled around' with her..he talked about it with him almost as if it was a cool thing to do, glorifying the sexual actions they did. Me being upset and disgusted told him I do not want our 30 yr old friend around our daughter anymore (who is 4) he got upset and told me it is in a mans nature to be attracted to younger females and there is nothing wrong with it if it is consensual..
I'm trying not to be ignorant about this and have read a few things on the issue saying men have an innate nature to be attracted to younger females.. and that it is called paraphillia (sorry for bad spelling) when attracted to young girls, and pedophilia when you act on that attraction.. I am really confused if I should just accept this in hopes that he will never act on his desires because they are normal/common amongst all men? am I just coming off jealous? Any opinions from men in particular would help me, I do not want to believe these attractions are normal for ALL men but if that is the case then I can just start to accept it as long as there isnt any actions towards those feelings.. Ive known my boyfriend a long time and do not believe he would ever hurt anyone.. sigh, I'm just confused and don't know who else to talk to about this"
And this was an answer.
"First, I think pedophilia is defined in the DSM IV as sexual attraction to PRE-pubescent persons. There is no disorder associated with being attracted to girls or boys who are teenagers or older. I would also point out that social taboos about dating teenagers is a very recent invention. In the 1700s here in America it was more common than not for teenage girls to marry men over twenty. So, I don't think we can assume that some 70% of all men in the 1700's were "creepy" or "abnormal".
Having said that, my issue with your boyfriend would have more to do with the infidelity aspect of it. He doesn't seem to take it seriously. Is this some kind of open relationship? He seems very irresponsible.
Finally, I can PROMISE you that most people who talk about the "creepiness" of it are hypocrites. I guarantee you if I select 1000 men randomly off the street, take a very, very hot 15 year girl and have her wag her tail in front of them, then tell them her age, every one of those men would be, uh, sexually aroused. They're just in denial.
Related to that is the biological aspect. Of course men are attracted to younger women. Think about it. And of course older women are EXTREMELY jealous of this, which is why they make such a fuss about it. There is simply no way a 30 year old woman can come anywhere near the sexaulity inherent in a girl half her age. Guys, remember when we were 15 and what our dates were like. Now compare that to 30 year old women today. NO comparison at ALL.
In fact, your admission of domestic violence and assault indicates to me that the exigent issue is the violence, not your boyfriends sexual picadellos. I would suggest you seek anger management counseling for that. I don't think you can effectively address your boyfriends issues until you've addressed this violent behavior. Just my thoughts."
D and I found this FASCINATING and had quite a conversation about it. Please contribute. I would love some thoughts.
D: Dude, these women are driving me crazy. THis isn't just, "I caught him with one file," these are stories about YEARS of evidence. And THEIR OWN CHILDREN. RUN, LADIES, RUN.
f: That is one thing I cannot forgive and look beyond. That is harm to children there. There is no excuse. There is no looking beyond that. People like that deserve to be socially shunned.
D: I think it's creepy for MUCH older men to see MUCH younger women. I think that, in very rare instances, it's not so bad. Once upon a time teenagers got married and had babies as a matter of course, but that's not to say they were happy with it. I do think that people get very hyped up these days over a silly distinction. 18 is not the best dividing line. After 15, teens have some sense of what their doing and should be held partially responsible for whatever goes on. A 17yo is not a CHILD, but people carry on like they're infants.
I'm less concerned with biological age, more with maturity and the inherent power dynamic
f: I think as far as arbitrary ages go, 18 is great. I guess this is where my conservatism kicks in, but I do remember being fifteen and I do remember thinking about these things. We like to look fondly back at ourselves and assign a greater awareness to our past selves than we actually had. I think it's got to do with experience, and since maturity is directly correlated with experience, the vast majority of western seventeen year olds don't have the requisite experience to deal with the sexual and emotional needs of someone much older than they.
I think that they just had it wrong historically. People did live shorter lives, etc
But I think they brought that upon themselves in childbirth -- so many girls who were not able to give birth properly were forced to against their biological readiness.
Even physically, it is not an ideal age.
D: Well, think about it. If you want to keep women subjugated, what better way than to marry them off before they get a chance to be independent and confident? Take full advantage of her naivete and subceptibility to power!
I think it's a bad idea for teens and much older people to date, it's VERY rare for it not to be damaging in some way. But I think we need to treat teens as TEENS, not as kids or as adults.
F: And as teens they are just not capable of the emotional connection required to emote with an adult. I might even understand (well, to a large extent) teenagers having sex with other teenagers.
D: I think five years is the absolute max age difference for that age group. Everything changes from year to year, they want very different things. It's not such a big deal later on, but when you're young, age matters a LOT.
f: Five years was what I had with W and that was crazy. Caused a lot of emotional problems for me in the beginning. (I was eighteen, remember.)
D: right… and in VERY different places, emotionally
F: Things have evened out a lot now, I think. But yeah, I'm not for the whole rationalizing attraction to teenagers thing. 18/19 years of age I guess you can convince me of, but I think the age limit is a self-defeating prophecy.
The seventeen year old really does have a complete absence of responsibility.
Because we don't give it to her.
D: That's what all this is--rationalizing